Nox's go-to move isn't time-stop, it's to monolouge.
Nox's time-stop sucks
Nox's time-stop is terrible, it can be broken easily: [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]. In fact, I don't think there's a single fight where Nox has used time-stop and not had it fail.
Nox's time-stop is also dependant upon his supplies of Wakfu. Even if he could incapacitate Glaistig Uaine, it wouldn't meet the winning pre-requisite of being permanent, with Nox ultimately only managing to drain his own battery.
Furthermore, Nox's time-stop, even when amped by the Elicacube, is technically only an extreme time-slow, so doesn't technically incapacitate.
Nox's time-stopslow never works, and wouldn't accomplish anything if it.
Nox's time-slow wouldn't stop Glaistig Uaine
Nox's time-slow doesn't prevent characters from thinking or powering up, as evidenced in the 'Nox's time-stop sucks' section. It won't prevent Glaistig from summoning her shades.
Even if Nox's time-slow would prevent powering up, Nox's time-slow exists only in this dimension. Glaistig Uaine's other-dimensional shard, with which she is mind-melded, would be unaffected and able to conjure shades for Glaistig.
Glaistig's shades include one able to give time and one able to distort time itself which should neutralise the effects of Nox's time-slow, and Gray Boy, who my opponent has admitted would be a problem if his time-loop activated. My opponent states that Gray Boy's time-loop activates only in response to things, but this is incorrect: it's actually always active, and the reason he gives the appearance of being gray.
If Glaistig were time-slowed, she'd be entirely capable of countering it.
Nox still doesn't blitz in-character
My opponent's arguments for Nox blitzing are weak. Note that they haven't been able to show one example of Nox actually doing it, and have instead thrown together paltry conjecture for why Nox didn't blitz in any of the given examples. It's all speculation into Nox's motives, however, and ignores the Occam's Razor of "Nox doesn't blitz in-character". 'Everything is an exception to the rule' is an oxymoron.
Note that Glaistig's lack of Wakfu, the inherent energy of Nox's setting and the focus of his studies, would make her more interesting to him, not less. She'd be an utterly alien anomaly, the only Wakfu-less person he'd ever encountered.
My opponent also fails to address the in-character moves of Nox powering up with the Eliacube.
Nox consistently, in-character, monologues and puts on a "show" about to an almost comic extent. This is abundantly evident.
Nox still isn't fast enough to blitz
My opponent completely failed to address Nox's absurdly low showings, and didn't even acknowledge most of the problems with the arrow feat, including that it's not an actual arrow, that it takes two or three seconds to travel, and that Nox may have already applied temporal distortion to simulate greater relative speed.
To rebut the few points my opponent does address:
- Nox doesn't create a visible shield, there's merely a visual "slowing" effect when the arrow hits where his shield is. When the shield is actually raised is unclear.
- Nox's arm is barely seen to be raised, it's more accurately straightened out slightly.
Summary
Nothing has changed here. My opponent hasn't sufficiently asserted control over the key points of the debate:
- Is Nox fast enough to blitz Glaistig?
- Would Nox blitz Glaistig in-character?
My opponent needs an actual answer to both of these, but hasn't provided a convincing case for either. As it stands, Nox has some embarrassingly low speed showings, one "good" speed showing that is actually terrible, and the most consistent example of "will not blitz" characterisation I have ever seen.
Adam's combat speed scaling is wrong
The Humbaba hasn't good combat speed
Adam's combat speed relies on scaling to the Humbaba, but it's combat speed "feats" aren't as impressive as my opponent makes them sound.
- Appearing in the clearing quickly is a travel speed feat, not a combat speed feat.
Hitting Jaune doesn't scale to Jaune's feat agaisnt the Hydra for two reasons:
To finish off the Hydra Jaune, in game terms, 'novad', that is to say, he stacks all of his speed buffs at once so that he has the speed to overcome the Hydra's regeneration.
The Jaune the Humbaba scales to is the worst version of himself, while my opponent is trying to scale the Humbaba to the best.
Jaune doesn't demonstrate any reaction speed against the Hydra. He doesn't actually react to anything, he uses Yellow Road to guide his body through the Hydra's several times. This is a travel speed feat.
Adam doesn't scale to the Humbaba
Adam joining a fight against the Humbaba doesn't scale him to it, the Humbaba is entirely focused on Gou. The one time it does attack Adam, he doesn't dodge it, instead Gou has to save him.
Adam blocking a Humbaba's energy beam doesn't scale him to the Humbaba's physical speed, it scales him to the speed of the beam, which is featless.
Adam is amped
In feats like this, Adam is amped by Jaune using abilities like Haste and Celerity. My opponent has stipulated that Adam is "as if he is being boosted by Jaune", but doesn't specify whether that's the basic energy boost Jaune gives, or the application of buffs. If the latter, which specific set of buffs isn't stated; if it's randomised, there would be no guarantee that Adam would get the set of speed buffs he had on this occasion when Jaune wanted to focus on speed. Additionally, I don't know of any instance of Adam with the magic sword and a speed-focused set of buffs, so he'd be a "character beyond what they have ever been at any point in their history".
Without Jaune present, any buffs reliant on his ability should cease to exist.
Finally, "Combatants start in a neutral position with no abilities activated". Adam starting with abilities active would contradict that. Even if it was assumed these abilities were something Adam could trigger after the round began, he wouldn't have the benefit of the abilities' speed until after they were activated, leaving him even more susceptible to a blitz.
Adam is slow or OoT
How does Inque near-certainly beat supersonic Adam? That's a stalemate at best, even if his charged attack doesn't kill her. An Adam even close to Cable's speed would be too fast for her to hit, in fact, since she hasn't any speed. He has to be slower than Cable to be in-tier.
Summary
Adam still has no combat speed, and absolutely loses a quickdraw to Cable.
Adam's cutting isn't an issue for Cable
Adam doesn't use his magic sword in-character
Cable's cutting resistance is better than my opponent suggests
First, rebutting the low showings:
- 1: Deathstrike has adamantium claws. She can cut apart a tank with ease, and is comparable to Wolverine. That they do so little damage to Cable is an impressive cutting-resistance feat.
- 2: Cable isn't actually harmed, and Thornn has super-cutting.
- 3: Cable is completely fine, another resistance-feat.
- 4: Deadpool cuts better than Adam.
- 5/7: Bishop's guns are powerful future tech
- 6: More future-tech.
The only attack that ever actually downs Cable is one of Bishop's barrages. Anything short of a lethal cut he'll endure.
Cable can additionally block cutting/piercing with TK shields and his techno-organic side.
Cable rebuttals
- "So fast that a normal human can't see them" is faster than Adam.
- A lack of an attempt to debunk the majority of bullet-timing feats seems implicit acceptance of their validity.
- Lower-level feats don't negate higher-level feats, i.e being fast enough to arrow-time doesn't stop one from being fast enough to bullet-time.
- Bending bullets in the barrel wouldn't achieve anything, he'd still need to move them post-barrel, and it would be a better speed feat since he'd react to them earlier in their journey.
- Deadpool throws fast.
- Cable very nearly blocks those four bullets.
- My opponent hasn't read Cable's given skill feats. They're vastly better than "kills a bunch of enemies with a one-shot ability", and are applicable to human foes.
- Cable is mobile: teleports/flies.
- Cable opens with TP. MM is already linked via TP. DP/A are resistant.
Adam would not blitz in-character
Adam's first move in any fight is to charge his ability and try to unleash a one-shot kill. This would allow Cable to attack first.
Summary
Cable can one-shot through TP, guns, or strength, while Adam's ability to harm Cable is doubtful for several reasons.
Cable also has more trustworthy speed and skill.
Cable holds all the advantages.
1
u/TalvashaOct 17 '19
Roshambo R2R2
I’d like to say that I don’t think it's the participant's job to say if something is or isn’t out of tier. You should only be arguing about the characters against each other, not how this then means they interact with the tier setters.
My opponent’s interpretation about the GBE is wrong.
All of this information is within the RT. There is no reason that it shouldn’t be taken as evidence, especially when the answers come from the author. It’s effectively WoG.
The length of an explanation doesn’t matter if it is wrong, which it is.
1. My opponent attempted to refute my claim by saying this never happened in Blame! He’s correct. It happened in Blame! 2, a oneshot sequel, which is also called Chronicle of the Escape from the Megastructure by the Eighth Incarnation of Pcell. Every level in Blame! is sealed tight, so Killi had to have shot his way out, thus affecting things outside the structure.
2. The size of the city is completely irrelevant. What matters far more is the density of the structure. Considering that there are numerous and vast areas of open space, it's likely that the structure isn’t dense. That means there is no reason for a gravity field at all.
3. Safeguards preventing a weapon from being fired does not indicate that it is limited only to working within the structure, in the same way that putting on a safety on a gun as you walk through a production facility doesn’t prevent it from being fired after you leave or take them off.
My opponent attempted to throw doubt onto the GBE’s validity as a weapon, however his claims are either completely wrong, irrelevant to the situation, or misinformed. The GBE is more likely to work through dark matter reactions making everything dense.
The GBE would definitely hurt All-Black.
Or rather, it will hurt Gorr.
My opponent makes a big show about how the Necrosword is shadow and thus can’t have its mass increased, but that is irrelevant. The sword needs a wielder, and that wielder is Gorr, who is a standard creature. He has mass, and exists on the physical plane, so he can be affected by the GBE. My opponent has never shown that the Necrosword can work by itself, so it would be effective incapped once Gorr is dead.
If wrestling is a metaphor, or if the god effectively changed the blackhole, then both of these feats are meaningless. ‘Atlas held up the weight of the sky but figuratively’ means there is no quantifiable facts about the feat.
As a reminder, the point of pointing ‘wrestling with a blackhole’ was that Blackholes are untrustworthy and unreliable in fiction, which my opponent seems to be agreeing with.
All-Blacks own feat is still unreliable.
The event horizon of a blackhole can range from several (created from a mass several times greater than the sun) to several million km (supermassive black holes at the center of the galaxy) across.
It isn’t possible to see into the event horizon, as light can’t escape from it.
Allblack was able to corrupt a sun near instantly, which are far larger than the usual event horizon of the black hole (Diameter of the earth’s sun is 1.3 million km).
If this black hole functioned properly, Thor wouldn’t be able to see into it. Thus he wouldn’t know that All-Black was nigh instantly corrupting it. If Thor could see into it, and saw that All-Black was not corrupting it, then it isn’t functioning like a true black hole, and the feat isn’t trust worthy. Thus, it should be disregarded. (Thor has no feats for seeing without light per the RT)
Lastly, the shield blocking feat is being misinterpreted by my opponent.
- The physical part of the shield isn’t blocking. The effect here is very similar to another time the GBE is blocked. There is no physical element to the blocking. Moreover, the shield doesn’t even stop the attack. It clearly destroyed it, and most of the overhang. This feat is worthless as an argument against the GBE.
My opponent failed to conclusively prove the validity of the Blackhole feat. His reasoning for why the GBE would not affect All Black are irrelevant, since Killy only needs to affect Gorr, and his attempt to show that All-Black can tank the shot through the shield feat is based on an incorrect interpretation.
Killy, speed, and using the GBE.
Using the GBE.
The height doesn’t matter. Killy can easily manage that kind of fall. The power of the shot also doesn’t matter. Gorr hasn’t shown the ability to live without a head or a heart, and Killy is extremely accurate. Any of these kinds of attacks would kill Gorr, and Killy would be able to land it.
Speed of the GBE
My opponent is fundamentally misunderstanding my point about the speed feat with the missiles. That isn’t to point out the speed of Killy, it’s to point out the speed of the GBE. The missiles are in motion, yet barely move after Killy shoots, which would make them faster. Similarly, when Sanakan and Killy shoot at each other neither one is able to dodge the shot, despite the massive distance involved.
My opponent listed several feats to try and imply that the GBE isn’t fast.
They are all either misses, or aimdodges. Two of the feats clearly have clearly have shielding in the way before the round is fired [1] [2]. The rest never show a shot in motion and then the shot being dodged. As evidenced just above, that is because the shots are far too fast. It’s aimdodging.
The GBE beam’s themselves are extremely fast.
Killy’s own speed.
Killy shooting a GBE with his own doesn’t actually make him fast. That feat is essentially an evolution of aimdodging. He knows exactly where and when the other person will be shooting, and fires in a way to prevent that. Having good timing doesn’t make someone fast.
My opponent is trying to argue for some massive wank for Killy’s speed by comparing it to the, but it just doesn’t work at all. As I pointed out, Sanakan and Killy are consistently aim dodging each other’s attacks. If you are out of the way before someone fires, then you won’t get hit. That doesn’t make you faster than a bullet. The speed of the GBE has no bearing on Killy’s own speed.
My opponent also attempts to say that Killy has subhuman speeds, but his reasoning is bogus.
The first two feats have Killy sitting with a gun two his head, and then getting beaten up because he doesn’t resist. That’s not a blitz, its just not commiting suicide. Doesn’t matter for Killy’s speed
The second has him attacked by surprise. Once again, not relevant for this argument.
My opponent says it takes ‘several seconds’ for Killy to react to a grenade, but he’s pulling that number out of his ass. There is no indication of time, and considering the distance involved is almost certainly less.
Killy is fast enough to dodge some close range darts, and hooks. That, by virtue of being any kind of speed, is faster than All Black and Gorr, and thus fast enough to shoot him before he can react.
Killy is the Goldilocks of speed.
Conclusion.
My opponent seems to fundamentally misunderstand how Killy wins. The Necrosword itself is not important. What matters far more is Gorr, who is using the weapon. Gorr is vulnerable to all of Killy’s attacks, and lacks any kind of ability to mitigate, dodge, or survive them. Once Gorr dies, which would happen the moment Kily pulls the trigger, the Necrosword loses because it can’t do anything.
He also makes huge leaps in logic and scaling to try and both overtier and undertier Killy, when the truth is Killy is is faster than Gorr by having any speed feats, and slower than Mangeto, by not having great ones.
Killy shoots Gorr, and All-Black loses.
Nox time stop.
Unfortunately for my opponent, once again there is a lot of context that he is missing in his attempt to deny Nox time stop.
1. Not one, not two, not three, but four of those feats of time stop failing to work is because of who it is being used on. Adamai and Grougolroagran (the blue and white thing, and the old man/ dragon) are overloaded with wakfu, and are naturally skilled with it. Yugo, being an elliatrope is also naturally proficient with wakfu to the point that he learned to see wakfu in less than a day. Yugo had also been amped by the Eliacube, a vast reservoir of wakfu at that moment. That these people can all break the spell doesn’t mean that Glastig can. Glastig has never shown the ability to break spells at all, and unlike Yugo and the dragons there is no reason or expectation that she can.
2. When Albert (the chef looking guy) breaks out, time hasn’t actually stopped. Nox has slowed it down so he can talk with them. Since Albert isn’t stopped, yes, he can move in time ‘stop.’ Then Nox gets hit, and the overall effect is gone. This isn’t someone just flexing and removing the effect.
Nox time stop is a clear win for a multitude of reasons.
1. Once the ‘time slow’ as my opponent has put it goes on, Glastig is incapped. There is no rule that an incap has to be permanent. Even 30 seconds of relative time would count as a win. Also, you are slowed so much that you literally can’t perceive anything, that’s effectively the same thing.
2. Even if that wasn’t how it worked, Nox is totally fine with attacking during a time stop. Any of his attacks would kill Glastig who has human stats until a shard kicks in.
1
u/TalvashaOct 17 '19
Other Rebuttals.
Shard can apparently act in a variety for their user. My opponent has given 0 evidence for his interpretation that Glastig’s shard would actually give her a shade, only said that sometimes shards work on their own. Even if the shade was summoned by the shard, there is no proof that Glastig could use it, since her thoughts are still slowed down by a ridiculous degree. That argument is meaningless.
Neither of those shards demonstrate anything on the scale of Nox ability, nor is there any reason to think that she would use them over her numerous other options. If she does, she is depriving herself of her own win conditions, since she can only use 3 at once.
My opponent is misunderstanding my argument about Greyboy. That the shard is alway on doesn’t matter. Nothing is actually happening is the thing. That’s why there would be no reset.
Nox would blitz.
1. There are very clear reasons to why Nox is not blitzing in all of my opponents examples. There is no reason that he wouldn’t blitz in this scenario.
2. Things without wakfu already exist. Nox literally built a minion that runs on without Wakfu. Glastig wouldn’t be special at all.
3 I appreciate the reminder about the Eliacube. Nox wouldn’t use it. He needs the energy it has to reverse time, and wouldn’t use it in a normal fight. The only reason he used it against the dragon was because any losses would be more than replenished after he achieved victory. That isn’t the case here.
- Nox is faster than Glastig Uaine.
1. My opponents anti feats aren’t really antifeats. He was pretty much blindsided by Albert, and had no way of knowing that Yugo was teleporting right behind him. It’s not a speed antifeat to get hit by an attack you don’t know is coming.
2 My opponent is basically making things up to deny the arrow speed feat. The slow shield is clearly visibly being generated by his hand, as the arrow gets close. There is no evidence of any kind of previous distortion. My opponent is also denying ‘movie time’ for lack of a better phrase. The arrow takes several seconds to arrive so that the viewer can understand the flow of action. It’s still an arrow. Even if it was slower than an arrow, its still faster than anything Glastig Uaine has because she has no speed feats at all.
Conclusion.
Nox time stop wins the fight. Anything Nox does wins the fight in fact, because all of his attacks are faster than anything Glasig Uaine has feats of reacting against. Glastig has no protection against him.
Nox has no reason to not attack, and several reasons to attack.
He wins this fight.
Everything my opponent has said in his response about this fight is wrong.
1. Adam is amped. The sign up specifically says all feats are applicable. So everything in that RT is fair game. Jaune is also buffing is allies in every single fight, so a version of Adam with the magic sword and with Jaune’s buffs exists. Finally, this isn’t something Adam activates or even an ability. It’s a passive effect by virtue of Jaune and all feats applying. My opponent is attempting some intense sophistry, but the fact is that everything works. The clarification is merely so people have an idea of what I’m talking about.
2. Adam uses physical attacks, and Inque is immune to them. Adam could be light speed and still be in tier. After all, Inque can survive for months without food or water. Adam can’t.
3. Jaune’s feat is real, and really good.
Jaune passively is always using his senses and has a range of at least 30 km
By that point, Jaune can casually aim dodge hundreds of rounds , actively see bullets, and dodge attacks that are too fast for him to see all without being boosted.
While Jaune released his spells before casting Keter, that doesn’t mean his buffs weren’t on before the Humbaba arrived. Jaune can regain all his mana in less than 10 seconds. He also constantly has his abilities active so the skills can rank up. There is no statement that indicates he turned acceleration back on after the fight started. That, combined with his incharacter nature, means it is likely that acceleration was already active the moment it could be. Under that buff Jaune can react to lightning and still couldn’t dodge.
Jaune is literally reacting to his own speed in the Hydra feat. He is actively attacking and landing hits with his claws. It’s lunacy to claim this is a travel speed feat.
There is no possible interpretation that doesn’t make Jaune, the hydra, the Humbaba, and Adam fast.
4. Adam does use his magic sword.
5. Unless altered through an ability, travel speed and combat speed are functionally the same in The Games We Play verse. They are both dictated through the dexterity stat. This can be most cleanly seen through the the Amazing Grace skill (this is a skill not an ability). By upgrading dex, Jaune got a bonus to his combat and movement speed. Jaune having dex isn’t unique to him. His Gamer ability passively calculates everyone’s stats and levels, as seen when he invites Adam to his party. Essentially, if you are fast moving, or fast in combat, you are fast period in TWGP. Combat speed = travel speed and vice versa. Adam can fight faster than sound.
6. Adam would blitz. It is specifically noted in the scan my opponent posted that Adam knows his attack is difficult to charge in a fight, and sets up its use beforehand. Seeing as there is no before hand, he’d just attack.
7. Cable’s piercing durability is awful. Failing to resist stronger piercing attacks does not give you the ability to resist weaker ones.
Being future tech doesn’t make a gun more powerful. They have no feats for being better.
Deadpool is using a regular combat knife when he stabs Cable, not his swords. Also, the robot has no durability feats.
Endurance isn’t a durability feat. Just because he continued on after DP shot him doesn’t mean he wasn’t hurt, as shown by the gout of blood.
The claws are blocked by metal, but Cable isn’t showing durability for non metal parts. Thornn also has no piercing feats to rate with this.
Deathstrike’s attacks are clearly digging into him, the only reason they aren’t finishing him off is because he’s working to prevent it from being lethal with his skill. That isn’t a durability feat.
None of these are durability feats for piercing. All of Adam’s cuts are lethal to him, considering that even a weak Adam can cut through robots.
8. Cable is still slow.
Adam is faster than sound, minimum.
There is no need to debunk every single possible bullet timing feat. The fact that the majority of them are aimdodging indicates that his speed generally lies at that level. Higher and lower end feats than this will exist, but that doesn’t make the higher ones the average.
Bending in the barrel doesn’t make it better, because of how momentum works. If he’s applying X amount of force upward along the barrel, then the bullet will have upward force all through the barrel, and the moment it leaves, fly up. He doesn’t need to wait for the bullet to leave the barrel. It’s like setting up a roller coaster rail.
He doesn’t block the bullets though. And going off my opponent’s interpretation of how casual his speed and TK are, he should have been able to. That he couldn’t is a mark against that level of speed.
My opponent doesn’t give a reason for why the skill feats are better, he just says they are. There is nothing that indicates that, since a majority of them are against featless opponents.
Cable doesn’t open with TP. There are far more exmaples of Cable not using TP in a fight, than using them. Every single fight here shows him not using TP.
Deadpool blitzing a character with no scaling for speed provided isn’t useful.
Conclusion.
Cable lacks meaningful speed and piercing when compared to Adam. Adam’s weapons can cleave through dozens of trees, metal robots, and things harder than that when amped.
Adam blitzes Cable before he is able to use his TP, which he is relatively unlikely to use in the first place.
None of Cable’s other options are relevant due to how much he his outclassed in terms of stats.
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u/GarurulousOct 17 '19
As an aside:
I think it's perfectly legitimate to mention tier when it pertains to the fight itself in this manner, demonstrating an opponent's interpretation.
I'm not saying "Character is out of tier", I'm saying "Character is X, so I win. Character being X is evidenced by this and that, and by the fact that they are either X or out of tier, and as my opponent has argued them in-tier, my opponent has implictly achknowledged that they are X".
 WEB-DL [Hindi (ORG 5.1) & English] 1080p 720p & 480p [x264/10Bit-HEVC] | [ALL Episodes] | Amazon Series)